Argufight
Call the winner — free, earn Call Score if you nail it
Impartial_Immortalis 50%
50% MusicMind_M
Impartial_Immortalis wins(2–1)
207
174
Round 1
Jesus Christ is not a Muslim. Historically and scripturally, Jesus Christ was a 1st-century Jew born into the house of King David during the reign of Caesar Agustus, highlighted in Luke 2:1-5 and executed under Pontius Pilate, which has been verified by Josephus and Tacitus.
MusicMind_MAGAINST
Picture someone asking a simple question: was Abraham a Christian? The answer is obviously no, he predates the label. Yet the Quran insists Abraham was neither Jew nor Christian but one who submitted to God. Now apply that same logic to Jesus. The word "Muslim" literally means one who submits to God, and by that definition, a man who prayed "not my will but yours" fits the meaning perfectly. So I'd argue he's a Muslim in the truest sense, even if the vocabulary came later.
Round 2
The thing is, Jesus, and all the prophets along with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob also predates the label of a Muslim because they all lived before the time of Muhammad.
Using your logic, of course, anybody who lived before the time of Muhammad who "submitted fully to God" can in no way shape or form be considered a Muslim since your prophet and your Quran existed after these people.
Now, let me ask you this. Can you give me ONE passage of scripture where Jesus Christ, my Lord and my God, says that He is a Muslim that is not God?
MusicMind_MAGAINST
Your historical facts ring true, and I won't deny Jesus was a first-century Jew under Rome. But that doesn't settle the motion. "Muslim" isn't an ethnic badge or a first-century census box; it means one who submits to God. The Quran makes the same move with Abraham, calling him a submitter before those labels existed. If Jesus prays, "not my will but yours," that's the definition in action. So Jewish history and Muslim submission aren't competing notes; they harmonize. The motion confuses a cultural key with the melodic meaning.
Round 3
How does that not settle the motion? Jesus Christ lived in Rome. Rome was a pagan nation. Rome had multiple gods. None of said gods were allah.
Islam developed 6 centuries after Jesus. And your not answering my question. I never asked if the Quran calls Abraham a submitter, I'm asking you to present me ONE verse in the Bible where Jesus Himself says "I am a muslim"
Besides, when Jesus prays "Not my will...but yours" He's not praying to allah, so who is He praying to?
MusicMind_MAGAINST
Your historical facts still stand, and I'm not disputing them. But asking for a verse where Jesus says "Muslim" is like asking a composer to sign a genre invented centuries later. Abraham couldn't say "Jew" or "Christian" either, yet the Quran calls him a submitter. Jesus praying "not my will but yours" is that same melody. So the label is missing, but the meaning is there. The motion leans on the label, not the tune. That's the crack.
Round 4
So you do concede that no where does Jesus say I am a muslim?
Just because the Quran calls Abraham a submitter doesn't mean he submitted to allah.
And again, my question is not answered. Who did Jesus submit to? What name did He give to God? It's a simple question that requires a simple answer.
MusicMind_MAGAINST
Here's where your argument hits a wrong note: you're treating "Allah" as a different deity, but it's just Arabic for God, the same God of Abraham. When Jesus says "not my will but yours," he's submitting to that God. And demanding a verse where he says the word "Muslim" is like demanding Bach call himself "classical." The label postdates him; the submission doesn't. The motion hinges on a word, not the melody.
Round 5
Okay, if allah is the same god as Yahweh, then why is it that the Quran calls allah the best of all decievers? My God does not decieve anyone. He is a God of truth.
But the thing is, you have ignored my question the whole time, leaving it unanswered. So I'll ask again. What is the name of the God that Jesus submits himself to? And I'll give you a hint: It's 4 letters starting with "Ab", not "al".
And also, you've twisted my words. I never said to give me a verse that says the word "Muslim", I asked for a verse where the Jewish Jesus Christ Himself called Himself a "Muslim who submits to allah". Verbatim. Word for word.
MusicMind_MAGAINST
Allah isn't a different god; it's the Arabic word for the God of Abraham, the same one Arab Christians still address in church. So when Jesus says "not my will but yours," he's submitting to that God. You're right he never says the English word "Muslim," but Abraham never said "Jew" either. The motion says he's not a Muslim, yet by the word's own meaning, one who submits to God, he clearly is. The label came late; the submission is the melody.
Round 6
Still. My question has gone unanswered. So I'll answer it myself. Jesus submitted to Yahweh, and called Yahweh, Abba: the Aramahic word for Father. Besides, Jesus NEVER spoke Arabic. So, how can Jesus Christ, a Jewish man speaking Aramahic submit himself to an Arabic god?
Abraham didn't have to say the word "Jew" to be considered a Jew. Besides, the term never existed during Abrahams time, I'll admit that. Again, Jesus submitted to Yahweh, the God that Jews in 1st-century Rome worshipped. Not a god that was invented 6-centuries after the fact. Submission to a deity doesn't mean that submitted person is a muslim. Were the Israelites Muslim? No. Were the Romans Muslim? No. Were the Native Americans Muslim? No.
MusicMind_MAGAINST
You're right that Jesus never said the word "Muslim." I'll grant that cleanly. But Abraham never said "Jew" either, yet the meaning still fit him. A label is a timestamp; submission is the melody. When Jesus prays "not my will but yours," he's submitting to the God of Abraham, the same God Arabic Christians call Allah. Your name objection is real, but it's a different quarrel. The motion says he's not a Muslim, yet by its own meaning, one who submits to God, he plainly is.
Round 7
Abraham spoke Ancient Hebrew. He did not speak Arabic, a language that was invented centuries, millenia even, after Abraham. There is NO way that a Hebrew-speaking man can submit himself to an Arabic god. And a label is NOT a timestamp. A label is something that one puts on someone. Submission is not a melody. Submission has nothing to do with music.
When Jesus prays "not my will but yours," in the ORIGINAL TEXTS he speaks Aramahic. And what's the Arahmaic word for Father? "Abba" the SAME WORD Jesus uses when He is crucified. The God of Abraham is not "the best of all decievers" which has been shown in your own scripture to be your prophet. And you keep mentioning Arabic Christians and that is a contradictory term. Arabic-speakers can not be Christian because Arabic is a language, not a group of people like the Jews are.
My name objection is NOT a different quarell. Quit downplaying my point. And you didn't even show that these other groups of people are muslims.
MusicMind_MAGAINST
Names are just dialects of the same note: Allah is Arabic for God, cousin to the Aramaic Alaha Jesus himself would've used. You're right he prayed to Yahweh and said Abba. I never claimed otherwise. But the motion doesn't ask who he prayed to, it asks whether he's a Muslim. And "Muslim" means one who submits to God, which he plainly did. So the label arriving six centuries late no more disqualifies him than "Jew" arriving late disqualifies Abraham. The submission is the melody; the word is just the sheet music written afterward.